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	<title>Comments on: Astroturfing in Political Wars</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars</link>
	<description>Social Media and Public Relations Consulting � PR Squared</description>
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		<title>By: Todd Defren</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2027</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Defren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 03:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2027</guid>
		<description>Mark, if you can share a link related to your concerns re: the Obama campaign, I&#039;l happily check it out, and denounce it if it is warranted.

Like you, writing about politics is a rarity for me, particularly on this blog, so I don&#039;t have the time or need to dig deep into the issues.

Thanks for stopping by, by the way, and for your recent writings re: the PR trade.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, if you can share a link related to your concerns re: the Obama campaign, I&#8217;l happily check it out, and denounce it if it is warranted.</p>
<p>Like you, writing about politics is a rarity for me, particularly on this blog, so I don&#8217;t have the time or need to dig deep into the issues.</p>
<p>Thanks for stopping by, by the way, and for your recent writings re: the PR trade.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark 'Rizzn' Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-3232</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark 'Rizzn' Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-3232</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t suggest that it&#039;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics, I said that it&#039;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics when they pioneered engaging in these tactics.

You should investigate Obama&#039;s grassroots campaign online - and I look forward to your upcoming denouncement of these tactics.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t suggest that it&#8217;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics, I said that it&#8217;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics when they pioneered engaging in these tactics.</p>
<p>You should investigate Obama&#8217;s grassroots campaign online &#8211; and I look forward to your upcoming denouncement of these tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark 'Rizzn' Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2026</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark 'Rizzn' Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 02:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2026</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t suggest that it&#039;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics, I said that it&#039;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics when they pioneered engaging in these tactics.

You should investigate Obama&#039;s grassroots campaign online - and I look forward to your upcoming denouncement of these tactics.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t suggest that it&#8217;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics, I said that it&#8217;d be disingenuous for the left to object to these tactics when they pioneered engaging in these tactics.</p>
<p>You should investigate Obama&#8217;s grassroots campaign online &#8211; and I look forward to your upcoming denouncement of these tactics.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Keliher</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2025</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Keliher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2025</guid>
		<description>Umm, your &quot;Imagine further...&quot; scenario already happens every day, and it happened way back when people thought &quot;blogs&quot; were swamps from which monsters crawled in sub-par horror movies. It&#039;s called cable news.

The harried day-time producer at MSNBC books Campaign A&#039;s talking head to parrot her assigned talking points of the day, allows Campaign B&#039;s representative to do the same, and then the next 90 seconds are spent with two people blathering at the top of their lungs as if the lapel mic were the extent of their audience.

Additionally, even if this is a stupid idea (and I am more likely to agree that it&#039;s stupid than I am to say it&#039;s *wrong*), it&#039;s done in the open. Stupidity gets called out; smart folks move on.

If someone gets duped, well, I believe in social Darwinism: survival of the fittest. If a hyperbolic, written-by-committee, cut-and-paste blog comment sways your vote, you ain&#039;t the &quot;fittest.&quot; (I don&#039;t mean &quot;you&quot; as in &quot;Todd&quot; but &quot;you&quot; as in just &quot;someone.&quot;)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm, your &#8220;Imagine further&#8230;&#8221; scenario already happens every day, and it happened way back when people thought &#8220;blogs&#8221; were swamps from which monsters crawled in sub-par horror movies. It&#8217;s called cable news.</p>
<p>The harried day-time producer at MSNBC books Campaign A&#8217;s talking head to parrot her assigned talking points of the day, allows Campaign B&#8217;s representative to do the same, and then the next 90 seconds are spent with two people blathering at the top of their lungs as if the lapel mic were the extent of their audience.</p>
<p>Additionally, even if this is a stupid idea (and I am more likely to agree that it&#8217;s stupid than I am to say it&#8217;s *wrong*), it&#8217;s done in the open. Stupidity gets called out; smart folks move on.</p>
<p>If someone gets duped, well, I believe in social Darwinism: survival of the fittest. If a hyperbolic, written-by-committee, cut-and-paste blog comment sways your vote, you ain&#8217;t the &#8220;fittest.&#8221; (I don&#8217;t mean &#8220;you&#8221; as in &#8220;Todd&#8221; but &#8220;you&#8221; as in just &#8220;someone.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Chip Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2024</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2024</guid>
		<description>@Todd - I, too, respect the Washington Post. But their article contains no evidence of the campaign&#039;s purported desire to see things &quot;cut and paste.&quot; Nor does it include even one example of a verbatim copying of the talking points. To say it is &quot;implied&quot; seems to me to be a stretch.

As for talking points, of course they are created to be used. But if you provide a client with talking points prior to an interview, do you expect them to say that their PR firm suggested a particular line? In the political world at least -- where I came from -- talking points are designed to provide general guidance to bosses, clients, and supporters, not verbatim messages. If they were listed as &quot;ghost written comments&quot; or something like that, I think the implication might be clear, but not with a label of &quot;talking points.&quot;

It just doesn&#039;t seem wrong to me that a supporter be asked to go to blogs to share their own views, informed by the campaign&#039;s information. (I don&#039;t happen to see the point in going to hardcore opposition sites like DailyKos, mind you, but that&#039;s a separate discussion.)

Finally, I agree we can agree to disagree. (A lot of agrees in that statement, in fact!)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Todd &#8211; I, too, respect the Washington Post. But their article contains no evidence of the campaign&#8217;s purported desire to see things &#8220;cut and paste.&#8221; Nor does it include even one example of a verbatim copying of the talking points. To say it is &#8220;implied&#8221; seems to me to be a stretch.</p>
<p>As for talking points, of course they are created to be used. But if you provide a client with talking points prior to an interview, do you expect them to say that their PR firm suggested a particular line? In the political world at least &#8212; where I came from &#8212; talking points are designed to provide general guidance to bosses, clients, and supporters, not verbatim messages. If they were listed as &#8220;ghost written comments&#8221; or something like that, I think the implication might be clear, but not with a label of &#8220;talking points.&#8221;</p>
<p>It just doesn&#8217;t seem wrong to me that a supporter be asked to go to blogs to share their own views, informed by the campaign&#8217;s information. (I don&#8217;t happen to see the point in going to hardcore opposition sites like DailyKos, mind you, but that&#8217;s a separate discussion.)</p>
<p>Finally, I agree we can agree to disagree. (A lot of agrees in that statement, in fact!)</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Defren</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2023</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Defren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2023</guid>
		<description>@Chip - We provide &quot;talking points&quot; in order that they be used.  Just because you don&#039;t see an explicit request to &quot;please cut &amp; paste&quot; does not mean that it is not strongly implied.

Anyway, that&#039;s what the WaPo reporter extrapolated in their article, and I place that paper pretty high in the Integrity dept.

We can agree to disagree, though.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Chip &#8211; We provide &#8220;talking points&#8221; in order that they be used.  Just because you don&#8217;t see an explicit request to &#8220;please cut &#038; paste&#8221; does not mean that it is not strongly implied.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s what the WaPo reporter extrapolated in their article, and I place that paper pretty high in the Integrity dept.</p>
<p>We can agree to disagree, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Chip Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2022</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:47:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2022</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I&#039;m missing something here, but I don&#039;t see anywhere in the McCain web page where it suggests that people should cut and paste from talking points into the comments on political blogs. It asks people to get active on the specified blogs, provides background information, and tracks what people report they have done to influence online discussion.

The &quot;astroturfing&quot; you mention is certainly something that could occur, but I don&#039;t see where the McCain campaign is encouraging it -- nor any evidence in this post that it has happened even without the campaign&#039;s intent.

Let&#039;s be careful about condemning the campaign for providing talking points. I can&#039;t believe that you and most of the folks who have commented here haven&#039;t provided talking points to clients before. Educating supporters or clients about timely topics isn&#039;t nefarious at all.

Fake comments would certainly not be a good thing, but to suggest that the campaign is aiming for the behavior just isn&#039;t supported based on what I can see.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m missing something here, but I don&#8217;t see anywhere in the McCain web page where it suggests that people should cut and paste from talking points into the comments on political blogs. It asks people to get active on the specified blogs, provides background information, and tracks what people report they have done to influence online discussion.</p>
<p>The &#8220;astroturfing&#8221; you mention is certainly something that could occur, but I don&#8217;t see where the McCain campaign is encouraging it &#8212; nor any evidence in this post that it has happened even without the campaign&#8217;s intent.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be careful about condemning the campaign for providing talking points. I can&#8217;t believe that you and most of the folks who have commented here haven&#8217;t provided talking points to clients before. Educating supporters or clients about timely topics isn&#8217;t nefarious at all.</p>
<p>Fake comments would certainly not be a good thing, but to suggest that the campaign is aiming for the behavior just isn&#8217;t supported based on what I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: Media Bullseye</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2028</link>
		<dc:creator>Media Bullseye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2028</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Political Social Missteps (and Other PR Blog Jots)&lt;/strong&gt;

Todd Defren takes on the issue of John McCain&#039;s presidential campaign supplying supporters with &quot;talking points&quot; with which to place comments throughout the blogosphere. Also: The importance of failure, vote in PR Week&#039;s Blog Contest, and brands that s...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Political Social Missteps (and Other PR Blog Jots)</strong></p>
<p>Todd Defren takes on the issue of John McCain&#8217;s presidential campaign supplying supporters with &#8220;talking points&#8221; with which to place comments throughout the blogosphere. Also: The importance of failure, vote in PR Week&#8217;s Blog Contest, and brands that s&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Shel Holtz</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2021</link>
		<dc:creator>Shel Holtz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2021</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you wrote about this, Todd. What amazed me is that the supposedly clued-in online team isn&#039;t aware (or doesn&#039;t care) that a backlash against astroturfing already exists. You have to wonder if they at least googled the word to see what kind of sentiment is already in play. They might have found this...
&lt;a href=&quot;http://tinyurl.com/h9jj5&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://tinyurl.com/h9jj5&lt;/a&gt;
...and changed their minds.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you wrote about this, Todd. What amazed me is that the supposedly clued-in online team isn&#8217;t aware (or doesn&#8217;t care) that a backlash against astroturfing already exists. You have to wonder if they at least googled the word to see what kind of sentiment is already in play. They might have found this&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/h9jj5" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/h9jj5</a><br />
&#8230;and changed their minds.</p>
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		<title>By: angelinjones</title>
		<link>http://www.pr-squared.com/index.php/2008/08/astroturfing_in_political_wars/comment-page-2#comment-2020</link>
		<dc:creator>angelinjones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pr-squared.com/pr2wp/?p=548#comment-2020</guid>
		<description>The biggest difference between astroturfing and censorship: astroturfing is a PR term and censorship is a political term. Astroturfing is a PR tactic which can be used for either political or commercial ends; censorship is always used for political ends. Using censorship with reference to China is a politically charged term because many critics of Chinese government policy like to use it to satisfy their own political agendas.



----------------------
Angelinjones

Utah Treatment Centers


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest difference between astroturfing and censorship: astroturfing is a PR term and censorship is a political term. Astroturfing is a PR tactic which can be used for either political or commercial ends; censorship is always used for political ends. Using censorship with reference to China is a politically charged term because many critics of Chinese government policy like to use it to satisfy their own political agendas.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Angelinjones</p>
<p>Utah Treatment Centers</p>
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